This presentation reflects the growing awareness in the anti-cult community that it often “takes a village”to respond appropriately and effectively to cult involvement and that each discipline brings different andessential expertise to bear on the issue. This talk will explore the vital elements of our collaborativeapproach (mental health professionals, former members, and exit counselors) using examples to illustratethese elements.A case presentation with a round table discussion from various perspectives, including interventionists,mental health professionals, research, and sociology.
Bio:
Joseph F. Kelly, a graduate of Temple University (focus on religion), has been a cult intervention specialist(thought reform consultant/exit counselor, mediator) since 1989. He spent 14 years in two easternmeditation groups (TM, International Society of Divine Love). He is a co-author of “Ethical Standards forThought Reform Consultants,” published in ICSA’s Cultic Studies Journal, and contributed a chapter to Captive Hearts, Captive Minds. He was (2010-2014) the News Desk Editor of ICSA Today.Mr. Kelly has also facilitated ICSA workshops for ex-members and families (1996-2018) and has lecturedextensively on cult-related topics.
Patrick Ryan is a graduate of Maharishi International University (Interdisciplinary Studies with a focus onEastern religious systems) and has been a cult intervention specialist (thought reform consultant/exitcounselor, mediator) since 1984.He was the the founder and former head of TM-EX, the organization of ex-members of TranscendentalMeditation. He was the editor of AFF News, a news publication for former cult members (1995-1998), hascontributed to the Cult Observer, AFF’s book, Recovery From Cults, is co-author of "Ethical Standards forThought Reform Consultants," and has presented 50 programs about hypnosis, inner-experience, tranceinduction techniques, communicating with cult members, conversion, cult intervention, exit counseling,intervention assessment, mediation, religious conflict resolution, thought reform consultation, easterngroups, transcendental meditation and workshops for educators, families, former members and mentalhealth professionals at ICSA workshops/conferences. Mr. Ryan received the AFF Achievement Award(1997) from AFF, the Leo J. Ryan "Distinguished Service Award" (1999) from the Leo J. Ryan Foundation,1and a Lifetime Achievement Award (2011) from ICSA.
Rosanne Henry, MA, LPC, emeritus director of ICSA, is a psychotherapist practicing in Littleton, Colorado.For more than thirty years she has been active in the cult-education movement, working closely with theformer Cult Awareness Network and ICSA. She served on the Board of Directors of ICSA from 2004 to2018 and was Chair of ICSA’s Mental Health Committee. She cofacilitated ICSA’s recovery workshops for25 years. In her private practice, Rosanne specializes in the treatment of cult survivors and their families.She is a former member of Kashi Ranch. In 2010, Ms. Henry received ICSA’s Margaret T. Singer Award(shared with the other Colorado workshop facilitators). She is also coauthor (with Carol Giambalvo) of“The Colorado Model” (ICSA Today, 1[1], 2010); coauthor (with Leona Furnari) of “Lessons Learned FromSGAs About Recovery and Resiliency” (ICSA Today, 2[3], 2011); and coeditor (with Lorna Goldberg, WilliamGoldberg, and Michael Langone) of ICSA’s Cult Recovery: A Clinician's Guide to Working With FormerMembers and Their Families, published in 2017.
Doni Whitsett, PhD, LCSW, is a Clinical Professor at the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social Workwhere she teaches various courses in practice, behavior, mental health, and human sexuality. She hasbeen working with cult-involved clients and their families for over 20 years and gives lectures to studentsand professionals on this topic. She has presented at national and international conferences in Madrid,Poland, Canada, and in Australia, where she helped organize two conferences in Brisbane. Her talks haveincluded The Psychobiology of Trauma and Child Maltreatment (2005, Madrid) and Why Cults Are Harmful:A Neurobiological View of Interpersonal Trauma (2012, Montreal). Her publications include ThePsychobiology of Trauma and Child Maltreatment (Cultic Studies Review, Vol. 5, No. 3, 2006), A SelfPsychological Approach to the Cult Phenomenon (Journal of Social Work, 1992), Cults and Families(Families in Society, Vol. 84, No. 4, 2003), which she coauthored with Dr. Stephen Kent, and Why cults areharmful: Neurobiological speculations on inter-personal trauma. ICSA Today, Vol. 5, No. 1, 2014. Dr.Whitsett also has a specialty in Sexuality and was awarded a Fulbright Specialist Scholarship in 2016 tostudy, teach, and do research on this topic in China.
Humans are peculiar. We are capable thoughts, feelings, and expressions ranging from unconditional love to insidious hate. It begs the question: where do we learn those concepts? And then: How do we unlearn them? Here is a good one: How does someone who has been a member of a group that professes hatred of other humans leave that community and ideology behind? What are the steps? What’s the process like? Who are the people that can help them?There is no excuse for hate and oppression. That much is very clear. However, when one recognizes the poison of their thoughts and actions, how can they walk away from beliefs that feel key to their identities? How can they move forward fully accountable for their actions? Is there potential for redemption? In episode 28, we talk with a clinical psychologist about implicit bias, counselors on how to bring back family and friends who may have gone too far down the QAnon rabbit hole. And we hear from a former white supremacist who is helping others leave those groups and shed the thoughts of hate.
Our guests for sharing their experience and expertise with us
Taylor Velazquez for pitching in with editing help
Jazztone the Producer, Cheo, Dahm Life, Business School, Sun Dog, and Oh Lawd Records for providing music for the show. Khaki, Pope Yesyeyall, and Bigawatt produced some of the show's themes.
*****
No More Normal is brought to you by Your New Mexico Government, a collaboration between KUNM, New Mexico PBS and the Santa Fe Reporter. Funding for our coverage comes from the New Mexico Local News Fund, the Kellogg Foundation and KUNM listeners like you, with support for public media provided by the Thornburg Foundation.
We dedicate this and every episode to the memory of Hannah Colton. We love and miss you Hannah.
Marisa Demarco began a career in radio at KUNM News in late 2013 and covered public health for much of her time at the station. During the pandemic, she is also the executive producer for Your NM Government and No More Normal, shows focused on the varied impacts of COVID-19 and community response, as well as racial and social justice. She joined Source New Mexico as editor-in-chief in 2021.
After being part of a group in their youth that claimed people could levitate or bring about world peace through meditation, Joe Kelly and Patrick Ryan, from the US city of Philadelphia, now help others escape abusive cults. One of the cases they are working on is a 21-year-old from a wealthy family who is fascinated by Andrew Tate.
Together with psychologists, psychiatrists and other specialists, Patrick and Joe develop strategies for the families of people who have been brainwashed so that they can escape the influence of the leaders of controversial groups.
These two spoke with the HotNews journalist in Philadelphia.
I met Joe Kelly (69) and Patrick Ryan (67) in a hipster coffee shop in the neighborhood where they live. Joe and Patrick are a couple who are what are called " cult interventionists " or "deprogrammers." That is, they help people get out of abusive cults: they say they "deprogram" them, after they have been brainwashed by charismatic leaders who, most of the time, are nothing more than scammers.
In most cases, Joe and Patrick are called to help by the families of those who fall under the influence of such a leader. According to some estimates from 2023, there would be over 10,000 cults active in the United States . But it's not just America on this map because the two have had cases from Europe to Australia. And in America, Joe and Patrick are not the only ones who are involved in this activity.
Success as a cult interventionist is by no means guaranteed, however. Joe Kelly tells me that since he began rescuing people involved in cults in 1992, he has had a failure rate of about 40-50 percent.
The Cult of Andrew Tate in America
Although when we talk about cults our mind automatically leads us to the idea of religion, in reality things are much more complex. Andrew Tate, for example, is nothing more than the leader of such a cult, even if there is nothing religious in what he preaches, according to Joe Kelly. And he is not the only one.
Beyond the criminal charges brought against him by prosecutors in Romania, of trafficking minors, sexual exploitation of women, money laundering and others, Tate has a huge impact on young people, even across the ocean. Or especially here.
The influence in the United States of leaders who preach extreme misogyny is no coincidence, says Patrick Ryan.
"In the US, for example, there is the 'Sterling Institute of Relationships' where young men sign up to be taught to be 'real men'. And if they are real men, they can have sex with whoever they want. Because that's what men do. And women's role is to submit," Patrick Ryan explains to me.
The two say that they are currently working with a young man from Philadelphia whose parents want to remove him from the influence of Andrew Tate and the internet groups that follow the teachings of the former kickboxer, who moved to Romania.
The young man who started calling his own mother "unfortunate"
I asked Joe and Patrick to give me some details about the case they're working on.
It's about a young man from a wealthy family, with a father known in the U.S. The name and other identifying details are confidential, the two explain to me.
The 21-year-old was sent to one of the good schools in the USA.
"At some point, the boy started drinking and watching videos with Andrew Tate. He dropped out of school, after being instilled with the idea that 'you don't need a regular university, you have nothing to learn there. I went to university and it's useless, we tell you what you need to be successful in life'. That's what the so-called 'life coaches' he was following told him," says Patrick.
What's worse is that, from these videos, the young man learned that women are "bitches" and began to treat his mother in this way.
From their findings, people often join dangerous groups because the problems come from the family. And part of Joe and Patrick's work means therapy with families, which need to be transformed into safe environments where victims can return safely.
"We need to create a stable environment, with access to help for mental health issues, a healthy place. Because otherwise, dangerous groups become more attractive, and victims return there."
"How is the extraction of the young man from under Tate's influence going at this moment?" I asked the interventionists.
Patrick says that the process is ongoing, but that the young man's environment is difficult: he dropped out of school, stays at home, dates many women whom he treats like "dolls." Just as he was taught in the online schools promoted by the Tate brothers.
Joe believes that Andrew Tate's teachings are close to the idea of patriarchy, which can be found in the Old Testament or in fundamentalist Islam.
"In their minds, liberal woke societies have created these women who have equal status to men, when, by nature, men are stronger and should be in control," Joe adds.
But who are Joe and Patrick, and how did they get into the position of helping others break free from the control of certain leaders?
The two people I met the other day at the ReAnimator coffee shop in Philadelphia were also involved in cults. Their story begins many years ago, when there was no internet and the influence of television was overwhelming.
Both Joe and Patrick were part of the "Transcendental Meditation" group founded by an Indian guru, famous at the time, in the 1970s.
"In 1975, I was in high school, 17 years old, when I saw Maharishi Mahesh, known as the "guru of the Beatles ", on TV. He promoted the benefits of meditation, along with famous actors such as Burt Reynolds, Clint Eastwood and others. At that time, the TM ("Transcendental Meditation") Center, founded by Maharishi, was very successful in America. Adults of all professions, from lawyers, doctors, to housewives, went there to be taught how to meditate and bring world peace. Many came from the Woodstock area, hippies, etc.," Patrick recalls.
The interventionist says his high school teacher encouraged him to take meditation classes, where he was taught by actress Mia Farrow's sister, Prudence . Prudence then referred him to Maharishi University, founded by the famous guru.
Patrick now remembers that at university, for two months in a row he took regular classes with renowned professors, then for a month he had to dedicate himself exclusively to the Maharishi techniques which involved meditation and spending time alone, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day.
People can fly or walk through walls
Things went crazy in 1977 when Maharishi announced that people could have supernatural powers: they could levitate, walk through walls, become invisible, etc.
"There were famous people who supported this, including, for example, Brian Josephson who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1973," Patrick continues.
Obviously, no one managed to acquire those supernatural powers, but, the former member of Maharishi's cult now says, the system was such that it made you believe that it was only your fault if you failed to fly.
"Friends of mine were sent to conflict zones like Mozambique, Lebanon, Somalia, to meditate and mentally stop the wars there. After that, Maharishi's people produced research that demonstrated that, indeed, wars stopped, crime decreased, the stock market increased, thanks to the meditation of these groups of people. So, here it is, the method works," Patrick says.
The interventionist says he began to realize what was happening to him when his father asked him to help one of his sisters who, in turn, had joined a Christian cult called " The International Way " and had severed all ties with the family.
"I called a woman who had also been part of this group to talk to my sister and convince her that it was a scam. As she was talking to my sister, I thought, 'wow, that happened to me at Maharishi University when I came to believe that I was going to save the world by flying,'" Patrick explains.
I was curious what they thought was at stake in this cult and this university (which still exists today). Patrick and Joe say it's about power and money.
"When he came to the US in 1958, Maharishi had no money, and when he died he had a fortune of over a billion dollars ." The Maharishi company also appeared in the Panama Papers revelations with money hidden offshore.
What exactly does a "cult intervention specialist" do?
Joe Kelly says he basically helps families develop strategies, along with psychiatrists, psychologists and other specialists, to communicate with loved ones who have become involved in these controversial groups.
"It's not a standard procedure, it varies from case to case, but we ask about 85 questions to see if we're a good fit to help them. Then, if we conclude that we can get involved, we do an assessment, which takes about eight hours, like 'where are you from, what's your relationship with your family members, etc. We also interview your family members to see what the dynamics are between them,'" Joe explains how the first interactions with those who have been victims of an abusive cult go.
Joe Kelly says he basically helps families develop strategies, along with psychiatrists, psychologists and other specialists, to communicate with loved ones who have become involved in these controversial groups.
"It's not a standard procedure, it varies from case to case, but we ask about 85 questions to see if we're a good fit to help them. Then, if we conclude that we can get involved, we do an assessment, which takes about eight hours, like 'where are you from, what's your relationship with your family members, etc. We also interview your family members to see what the dynamics are between them,'" Joe explains how the first interactions with those who have been victims of an abusive cult go.
The two say they turn to all kinds of specialists to help them in their endeavor because cults are also very different. For example, in cases of "sex cults", they turn to experts specializing in sex therapy.
I'm curious if Joe and Patrick need a license for their work and how many people they've helped in their work. They tell me they don't need to get a license, as long as the specialized help provided to victims and their families comes from people with the necessary training.
"The services we provide for the families who call on us are not cheap at all because the experts we call on are not cheap. In addition to this, we volunteer for non-profit organizations and also hold online workshops for families who cannot afford to pay these amounts," explains Patrick, who estimates that "hundreds of people a year" benefit in one form or another from their help.
Patrick says that in January 2020, he began receiving calls from families whose relatives had fallen into so-called " rabbit holes ," a term used to describe people who fall prey to conspiracy theories and isolate themselves from others, usually because they "don't understand."
"For example, one of these people was a mother in her 50s, a doctor, who watched conspiracy videos, like " pizza gates " or other crazy ones that said that anyone wearing red shoes is connected to the Vatican or is controlled from another planet.
"The woman had entered a manic state, she no longer slept at night, she only watched videos and she even ended up writing to a local newspaper about these conspiracies," says Patrick.
QAnon has taken over mythologies, old conspiracy theories, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion , a hoax invented by the Russians of the Tsarist Empire Here to justify the killing of Jews, Patrick and Joe further explain.
Why do people get involved in cults?
I ask Patrick and Joe why they think people get involved in these cults. What needs do they have that they can't meet otherwise?
Patrick says that, in his experience, neither a person's wealth, education, or intelligence matters.
"Generally, they are not satisfied with their lives and want a better one. They start reading about other people who have been helped by certain 'gurus', they go to seminars without knowing what the agenda of that seminar is. But many times, the problems are in the family," explains Patrick.
Regarding the differences between cults from the 80s, 90s, and today's, the two interventionists say that before the advent of the internet, the number of members of such a group was much higher, 10 million people, "like Scientologists, for example."
"Now the groups are much smaller, because people can Google and find out things about that group or leader: 'look, there's a problem here,'" says Patrick.
Joe believes that "aesthetic" is the word that best defines their work because what they do most is help families understand why some members value something that they cannot understand. Only in this way can they be convincing to those who have been seduced by a particular cult.
"If you come to my house and see a painting on the wall and say, 'What an ugly painting,' then where do we end up? On the other hand, if you say, 'What an interesting composition, but I wonder why the artist wanted to do that?' then it's a completely different matter. We try to teach families to appreciate what their loved ones appreciate, and then they will have a chance of success," concludes Patrick.
Cults101.orgresources about cults, cultic groups, abusive relationships, movements, religions, political organizations, and related topics.
The selection of articles for CultNEWS101 does not mean that Patrick Ryan or Joseph Kelly agree with the content. We provide information from many points of view to promote dialogue.
Patrick Ryan, left, and Joe Kelly. In the background, guru Maharishi Mahesh with Beatles members George Harrison, left, and John Lennon, in 1967. Photo: AP / Profimedia
After being part of a group in their youth that claimed people could levitate or bring about world peace through meditation, Joe Kelly and Patrick Ryan, from the US city of Philadelphia, now help others escape abusive cults. One of the cases they are working on is a 21-year-old from a wealthy family who is fascinated by Andrew Tate.
Together with psychologists, psychiatrists and other specialists, Patrick and Joe develop strategies for the families of people who have been brainwashed so that they can escape the influence of the leaders of controversial groups.
These two spoke with the HotNews journalist in Philadelphia.
I met Joe Kelly (69) and Patrick Ryan (67) in a hipster coffee shop in the neighborhood where they live. Joe and Patrick are a couple who are what are called “ cult interventionists ” or “deprogrammers.” That is, they help people get out of abusive cults: they say they “deprogram” them, after they have been brainwashed by charismatic leaders who, most of the time, are nothing more than scammers.
Patrick (left) and Joe, in Philadelphia. Photo: Gabriel Bejan / Hotnews
In most cases, Joe and Patrick are called to help by the families of those who fall under the influence of such a leader. According to some estimates from 2023, there would be over 10,000 cults active in the United States . But it's not just America on this map because the two have had cases from Europe to Australia. And in America, Joe and Patrick are not the only ones who are involved in this activity.
Success as a cult interventionist is by no means guaranteed, however. Joe Kelly tells me that since he began rescuing people involved in cults in 1992, he has had a failure rate of about 40-50 percent.
The Cult of Andrew Tate in America
Although when we talk about cults our mind automatically leads us to the idea of religion, in reality things are much more complex. Andrew Tate, for example, is nothing more than the leader of such a cult, even if there is nothing religious in what he preaches, according to Joe Kelly. And he is not the only one.
Andrew Tate and brother Tristan at the Bucharest Court of Appeal, August 2024. Photo: Lucian Alecu / Alamy / Profimedia
Beyond the criminal charges brought against him by prosecutors in Romania, of trafficking minors, sexual exploitation of women, money laundering and others, Tate has a huge impact on young people, even across the ocean. Or especially here.
The influence in the United States of leaders who preach extreme misogyny is no coincidence, says Patrick Ryan.
Patrick Ryan, photo from personal archive.
"In the US, for example, there is the 'Sterling Institute of Relationships' where young men sign up to be taught to be 'real men'. And if they are real men, they can have sex with whoever they want. Because that's what men do. And women's role is to submit," Patrick Ryan explains to me.
The two say that they are currently working with a young man from Philadelphia whose parents want to remove him from the influence of Andrew Tate and the internet groups that follow the teachings of the former kickboxer, who moved to Romania.
The young man who started calling his own mother "unfortunate"
I asked Joe and Patrick to give me some details about the case they're working on.
It's about a young man from a wealthy family, with a father known in the U.S. The name and other identifying details are confidential, the two explain to me.
The 21-year-old was sent to one of the good schools in the USA.
"At some point, the boy started drinking and watching videos with Andrew Tate. He dropped out of school, after being instilled with the idea that 'you don't need a regular university, you have nothing to learn there. I went to university and it's useless, we tell you what you need to be successful in life'. That's what the so-called 'life coaches' he was following told him," says Patrick.
What's worse is that, from these videos, the young man learned that women are "bitches" and began to treat his mother in this way.
From their findings, people often join dangerous groups because the problems come from the family. And part of Joe and Patrick's work means therapy with families, which need to be transformed into safe environments where victims can return safely.
"We need to create a stable environment, with access to help for mental health issues, a healthy place. Because otherwise, dangerous groups become more attractive, and victims return there."
"How is the extraction of the young man from under Tate's influence going at this moment?" I asked the interventionists.
Patrick says that the process is ongoing, but that the young man's environment is difficult: he dropped out of school, stays at home, dates many women whom he treats like "dolls." Just as he was taught in the online schools promoted by the Tate brothers.
Joe Kelly, photo from personal archive
Joe believes that Andrew Tate's teachings are close to the idea of patriarchy, which can be found in the Old Testament or in fundamentalist Islam.
"In their minds, liberal woke societies have created these women who have equal status to men, when, by nature, men are stronger and should be in control," Joe adds.
But who are Joe and Patrick, and how did they get into the position of helping others break free from the control of certain leaders?
Pat and Joe in a photo from their youth.
The two people I met the other day at the ReAnimator coffee shop in Philadelphia were also involved in cults. Their story begins many years ago, when there was no internet and the influence of television was overwhelming.
Both Joe and Patrick were part of the "Transcendental Meditation" group founded by an Indian guru, famous at the time, in the 1970s.
Maharishi Mahesh during a class with students at the Harvard Law School Forum in Cambridge, Massachusetts, January 1968. Photo: Bill Chaplis / AP / Profimedia
"In 1975, I was in high school, 17 years old, when I saw Maharishi Manesh, known as the "guru of the Beatles ", on TV. He promoted the benefits of meditation, along with famous actors such as Burt Reynolds, Clint Eastwood and others. At that time, the TM ("Transcendental Meditation") Center, founded by Maharishi, was very successful in America. Adults of all professions, from lawyers, doctors, to housewives, went there to be taught how to meditate and bring world peace. Many came from the Woodstock area, hippies, etc.," Patrick recalls.
Maharishi with members of the Beatles: Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Ringo Starr and George Harrison at a meeting in London, September 1967. Photo: KEYSTONE Pictures USA / Zuma Press / Profimedia
The interventionist says his high school teacher encouraged him to take meditation classes, where he was taught by actress Mia Farrow's sister, Prudence . Prudence then referred him to Maharishi University , founded by the famous guru.
Patrick now remembers that at university, for two months in a row he took regular classes with renowned professors, then for a month he had to dedicate himself exclusively to the Maharishi techniques which involved meditation and spending time alone, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day.
Patrick, while he was at Maharishi European Research University (L)Maharishi International University (R).
People can fly or walk through walls
Things went crazy in 1977 when Maharishi announced that people could have supernatural powers: they could levitate, walk through walls, become invisible, etc.
"There were famous people who supported this, including, for example, Brian Josephson who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1973," Patrick continues.
Obviously, no one managed to acquire those supernatural powers, but, the former member of Maharishi's cult now says, the system was such that it made you believe that it was only your fault if you failed to fly.
"Friends of mine were sent to conflict zones like Mozambique, Lebanon, Somalia, to meditate and mentally stop the wars there. After that, Maharishi's people produced research that demonstrated that, indeed, wars stopped, crime decreased, the stock market increased, thanks to the meditation of these groups of people. So, here it is, the method works," Patrick says.
The interventionist says he began to realize what was happening to him when his father asked him to help one of his sisters who, in turn, had joined a Christian cult called " The International Way " and had severed all ties with the family.
"I called a woman who had also been part of this group to talk to my sister and convince her that it was a scam. As she was talking to my sister, I thought, 'wow, that happened to me at Maharishi University when I came to believe that I was going to save the world by flying,'" Patrick explains.
I was curious what they thought was at stake in this cult and this university (which still exists today). Patrick and Joe say it's about power and money.
"When he came to the US in 1958, Maharishi had no money, and when he died he had a fortune of over a billion dollars ." The Maharishi company also appeared in the Panama Papers revelations with money hidden offshore.
What exactly does a "cult intervention specialist" do?
Joe during a workshop in Dallas, TX.
Joe Kelly says he basically helps families develop strategies, along with psychiatrists, psychologists and other specialists, to communicate with loved ones who have become involved in these controversial groups.
"It's not a standard procedure, it varies from case to case, but we ask about 85 questions to see if we're a good fit to help them. Then, if we conclude that we can get involved, we do an assessment, which takes about eight hours, like 'where are you from, what's your relationship with your family members, etc. We also interview your family members to see what the dynamics are between them,'" Joe explains how the first interactions with those who have been victims of an abusive cult go.
Patrick (M), Joe (R) at a international conference in Beijing, China.
The two say they turn to all kinds of specialists to help them in their endeavor because cults are also very different. For example, in cases of "sex cults", they turn to experts specializing in sex therapy.
I'm curious if Joe and Patrick need a license for their work and how many people they've helped in their work. They tell me they don't need to get a license, as long as the specialized help provided to victims and their families comes from people with the necessary training.
"The services we provide for the families who call on us are not cheap at all because the experts we call on are not cheap. In addition to this, we volunteer for non-profit organizations and also hold online workshops for families who cannot afford to pay these amounts," explains Patrick, who estimates that "hundreds of people a year" benefit in one form or another from their help.
Patrick says that in January 2020, he began receiving calls from families whose relatives had fallen into so-called " rabbit holes ," a term used to describe people who fall prey to conspiracy theories and isolate themselves from others, usually because they "don't understand."
"For example, one of these people was a mother in her 50s, a doctor, who watched conspiracy videos, like " pizza gates " or other crazy ones that said that anyone wearing red shoes is connected to the Vatican or is controlled from another planet.
"The woman had entered a manic state, she no longer slept at night, she only watched videos and she even ended up writing to a local newspaper about these conspiracies," says Patrick.
QAnon has taken over mythologies, old conspiracy theories, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion , a hoax invented by the Russians of the Tsarist Empire to justify the killing of Jews, Patrick and Joe further explain.
Why do people get involved in cults?
Joe Kelly with cult leader Swami Prakashanand Saraswati in 1987. He was convicted of child sexual abuse but fled to Mexico. Image from Joe and Patrick's personal archive
I ask Patrick and Joe why they think people get involved in these cults. What needs do they have that they can't meet otherwise?
Patrick says that, in his experience, neither a person's wealth, education, or intelligence matters.
"Generally, they are not satisfied with their lives and want a better one. They start reading about other people who have been helped by certain 'gurus', they go to seminars without knowing what the agenda of that seminar is. But many times, the problems are in the family," explains Patrick.
Regarding the differences between cults from the 80s, 90s, and today's, the two interventionists say that before the advent of the internet, the number of members of such a group was much higher, 10 million people, "like Scientologists, for example."
"Now the groups are much smaller, because people can Google and find out things about that group or leader: 'look, there's a problem here,'" says Patrick.
Joe believes that "aesthetic" is the word that best defines their work because what they do most is help families understand why some members value something that they cannot understand. Only in this way can they be convincing to those who have been seduced by a particular cult.
"If you come to my house and see a painting on the wall and say, 'What an ugly painting,' then where do we end up? On the other hand, if you say, 'What an interesting composition, but I wonder why the artist wanted to do that?' then it's a completely different matter. We try to teach families to appreciate what their loved ones appreciate, and then they will have a chance of success," concludes Patrick.
Joe Kelly "I was involved with two groups in the 70s. One was a group called Transcendental Meditation or TM, that was run by a Hindu guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who became famous for being the Beatles guru. Here, we went from a simple 20-minute meditation technique to being convinced we could levitate for world peace.
Simultaneously, I was studying comparative religions, and was especially fascinated by Hinduism. I met a man—who I thought was my true guru—named Swami Prakashanand Saraswati, who had a group called the International Society of Divine Love. In the 1980s, he took a group of us from TM and established an ashram in Philadelphia, which was more structured and rigid. Some of its members even sued Maharishi for millions of dollars for being a fraud. Swami Prakashanand then used the money to set up a temple outside of Austin, Texas, called Barsana Dham. But the Swami was eventually convicted of abusing his follower’s children, though he ran back to India where he was protected.
After that, the group’s attorneys suggested we attend this conference where ex members of cults talk about their experiences, so we could understand how to evaluate whether someone is a spiritual guru or a conman. That’s when I first understood the psychology and sociology behind these groups, and decided I’d use my experiences to take apart the structures of belief for other people who had gravitated towards cults.
People join cults if they are dissatisfied with their family, or want to find their own individuality, and such groups make them believe they will help you realise your true potential. One of the most challenging cases I’ve worked on was with a group that encouraged channeling, which is the concept that there is a world of dispossessed spirits that can educate the people of this world, and give you knowledge to live a better life.
But what they taught was that the use of drugs like ecstasy and LSD could help you gain this knowledge. Their approach was to gain more monetary benefit from the world, and they believed that through positive thinking and believing in prosperity, you can change your alignment with the universe, and it would bestow wealth upon you. It was led by a woman named Katherine Holt, who said she was channeling a spirit from the 17th century of a man named Father Andre, who was theoretically a mystic. She had about 30 followers, and would cause people to couple or decouple. She would ask them to do ecstasy, or have sex with people other than their spouses. I began working with a man named Mark, who had married a woman in the group. While in session, his wife was told to have sex with another man upstairs, while Mark could hear them. The leader told Mark that despite what he was hearing and feeling, he had to separate from that emotion. That he would only be free if he let go of the ego and ownership he felt for his wife, and refused to live by the norms of the society. He was tripping on drugs, but was told not to feel the emotions he was feeling.
At that point Mark realised there was something very wrong there. He went to his parents, who contacted me through the Cult Awareness Network. His dilemma was that his wife and child were in the group, and that child was being breastfed by a mom using LSD and ecstasy. We developed a strategy to reach out to the wife. Her family had a wedding in New England, so we went there. The cult told her to stay away from her husband, who was “evil” because he’d left the group. I was supposed to make him feel calm and try to help his wife see how wrong the group was. But, unbeknownst to me, my mentor had organised for Mark to take his child and move to a safe house in Colorado. It culminated in a long legal battle for custody, but eventually the group’s leader was arrested and the wife left."
Some of the most difficult cases for me are the ones that involve a family. Once there’s a romantic influence or friendship with other members of the cult, it becomes more difficult to break them out of it. (Cult Mediation website at (cultmediation.com)
Joseph Kelly & Patrick Ryan have given decades to helping families and loved ones in an unhealthy group of high control / high demand. They are both internationally renowned cult mediation specialists and have also been known as cult intervention specialists, thought reform consultants, or exit counselors.
Joseph F. Kelly, a graduate of Temple University (focus on religion), spent 14 years in two different Eastern meditation groups (TM, International Society of Divine Love). He contributed a chapter to Captive Hearts, Captive Minds. He was (2010-2014) the News Desk Editor of ICSA Today.
Patrick Ryan (BA in Interdisciplinary Studies, Maharishi International University) is the founder and former head of TM-Ex, the organization of one-time Transcendental Meditation (TM) movement members. He is also one of the AFF associates whose advice to law enforcement officials might have helped avert the Waco debacle had it been heeded. He also shares part of his experience in “Recovery from Cults,” edited by Michael D. Langone. Both
Pat and Joe have facilitated many ICSA workshops for ex-members and families (1996-2023). They both lecture extensively on cult-related topics and have also contributed to writing about related topics, amidst which is their co-authoring of “Ethical Standards for Thought Reform Consultants,” published in ICSA’s Cultic Studies Journal. Check out the Cult Mediation website at cultmediation.com
